idle leans off after running closed loop!

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idle leans off after running closed loop!

Postby VXL67Getrag » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:24 pm

First can I start by saying this forum is almost useless, no one responds!

I have finally set up workshop w53 so it's pretty good except for 2 problems!

I have the fuel so it is pretty clean throughout the rev range by leaving the inj rate as it should be for the injectors fitted & just increased the inj mul's, I have ltft switched off & have the auto update ve & vect off!
But after 5 mins of running at closed throttle idle the engine leans itself off badly, so then there is a flat spot on take off!

What makes the problem worse is when I go to start it straight after switching it off it won't start up like it's flooding, I have to turn injrate down 10 base's to get ti to start & then lift it back up once it's running!

Just to let everyone know I have the commanded afr's set to 14.7 across the board while tuning & I have tried the stoic idle flag in gen options but it makes no difference either way!
Any feedback would be great!
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Re: idle leans off after running closed loop!

Postby stormtrooper » Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:41 pm

VXL67Getrag wrote:First can I start by saying this forum is almost useless, no one responds!
Here's my feedback. Maybe you should write a book and call it "how to win friends and influence people".

A couple of points I think you may not realise, the internet is not the be all and end all for the vast majority of us, in other words we don't live online waiting for posts to be made so we can answer them in a certain amount of time. We have jobs and businesses that aren't call centre related. Everyone here volunteers their time and knowledge freely.

Next you may not know this but most of us have SP3 not Workshop and Workshop is different in a few ways so in trying to help you out by telling you what we would do using SP3 we could in actual fact be making your problem worse.
If you need help with anything Kalmaker related (that includes things like ECU, program, injector, wiring etc) ask on the forum so everyone can help or learn.
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Re: idle leans off after running closed loop!

Postby VPSteve » Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:44 am

That's funny. :(
I know it's not workshop, but in SP3 using VECT I've changed all my commanded AFR's to 14.6 so the O2 sensor doesn't try to run the engine, and the settings i've input do.
HTH
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Re: idle leans off after running closed loop!

Postby VXL67Getrag » Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:06 am

Well, michaels automotive, I too am trying to run a business & learn how to use this aswell, the last 2 posts I had, had 50 odd views & no responses both were up for a couple of weeks before I commented!
I paid $2000.00 to buy the stuff & as there is no technician to come out & help you would have thought the forum for the actual product MIGHT be of assistance!!!!

But I will try your advice Steve, thank you very much!!!

Any help is very appreciated!
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Re: idle leans off after running closed loop!

Postby stormtrooper » Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:48 pm

VXL67Getrag wrote:Well, michaels automotive,
just call me michael or stormtrooper like everyone else does.

VXL67Getrag wrote: the last 2 posts I had, had 50 odd views & no responses both were up for a couple of weeks before I commented!
looking at your profile the only thread you have started that has NOT had a reply is the one about buying a Dyno. My advice there would be call Mainline or DynoDynamics and talk to them. Last time I did I was told $80k could get me a 2nd hand dyno used less than 5 times. As for the 50 odd posts with no reply only the Workshop W53 thread has had that many let alone anywhere near that many views. The others are 16, 12 & 12 in that order. The Laptops that do work has 300 but please don't claim they are all for your positive post about your laptop experience.

VXL67Getrag wrote:I paid $2000.00 to buy the stuff & as there is no technician to come out & help you would have thought the forum for the actual product MIGHT be of assistance!!!!
that is a fair comment BUT I'll ask you did you read the info that come with the product? have you read the website (it has been updated recently) before you started asking questions that the answer may be there for if you knew where to look.

Don't take this the wrong way because I'm not trying to get an argument out of you but lighten up a tad.
If you need help with anything Kalmaker related (that includes things like ECU, program, injector, wiring etc) ask on the forum so everyone can help or learn.
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Re: idle leans off after running closed loop!

Postby DerekBell » Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:30 pm

The man to answer all these questions is Al (Hooter), but you have previously stated you didn't want to listen to him.

I have had no experiance with workshop whatsoever, and it can be completely different to SP3 (Which 90% of us use as stormtrooper mentioned)..

The VECT if it exists in workshop would likely be the best answer..
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Re: idle leans off after running closed loop!

Postby VXL67Getrag » Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:24 am

Hey Michael & Derek,
First thing I want to mention I don't think I ever said I don't want to listen to al(hooter)!- as he has great knowledge & the person that sold it to me but the response on the emails is getting a bit slower!
Stormtrooper you obviously do want to start an argument if you want to keep quoting me & shooting me down even if they are MISS quotes, as I said I had 50 VIEWS not topics & no replies!
But feedback & responses is exactly what I was after & that is why I started the post the way I did!

I have read all the info on the disc's & with Al's help I am slowly getting there, but it is a very s,ow process & get over 1 hurdle just to hit the next!

Just to let anyone know out there simply,

THE VE tables don't work if your using a MAF sensor these tables only for map sensor!

& on the other hand the inj mul's dont work if your using a MAP sensor this table is only for MAF!

Now I have to figure out why it is going lean after idling closed loop still!!!!
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Re: idle leans off after running closed loop!

Postby stormtrooper » Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:55 pm

Well today one of life's big questions has been definitively answered, I am human after all. I must be cause I make mistakes, lol. You know quite well what I meant, so I types posts and not views, my bad. The quote however was totally accurate cause I merely quoted what you yourself said. You exaggerated and got caught out, like I said lighten up a tad.

Back to the real issue, you seem to be figuring things out, yes it is a slow process but thats what happens when your learning something new.

Make sure when your adjusting settings that you document each adjustment and only do one at a time. If you do more than one you wont know what is helping and what isn't.

One last thing, keep asking questions and even if you don't get any answers post what you are learning as you go so that others after you can benefit.
If you need help with anything Kalmaker related (that includes things like ECU, program, injector, wiring etc) ask on the forum so everyone can help or learn.
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Re: idle leans off after running closed loop!

Postby Hooter » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:35 pm

Hi Guys, I was wondering if you were making yourself known here Grant.
I dont get here that regularly, as I am busy answering everyone else's emails (as well as yours), as well as everyones else's requirements, parts, software etc, as well as quite a bit of tuning, and only so many hours in a day.
So good work everyone, and yes it does take a bit of time to get your head around things, and yes there is a lot to read, and believe me, the guys that are prepared to read and re-read all the docs, cd, etc, become the best tuners.
They reckon there are 3 types of ways to learn, and we all vary the way in which we learn
Listening, Seeing, and Doing, and most people prefer doing, ie hands on, eg, get a new phone, ipod, tv, dvd recorder etc, biff the instructions, and into it, dont need that instruction shit......
Ok, no more he said, she said stuff
Theres a few things that worry me about what you say.
Turned off VECT,....you cant do that ( in Workshop), even if running MAP sensor (mafless)
There are the VECT and VEF update, but I dont recommend using them. These are auto learning.
From my last email, have you taken that on, about watching bpw, (commanded) AFR, Spark Advance, and Idle Steps (IAC)
One thing I forgot to ask, was, are you doing this idle stuff at Normal Operating Temp?????
It is essential not to make any changes to a new tune until it is at N.O.T.
Then get all your tuning done, and once you have this right, you then can start changing your cold start stuff.
When you start an engine at any temp, there are all sorts of corrections being made, even at N.O.T.
This then fades out depending on what either you or the factory has set these corrections to.
You can track this (datalog) and save, or just look and observe without saving, ie Gauge/ View, or Guage/ Capture, and then, the Gauge /Capture, can be Gauge /Play(ed) back.
This can also be done in List/ View, but there are quite a few options to View, as listed in List/ Main.
It is absolutely essential to at least observe these and see what is happening to Time Out AFR for example
This is where, just after starting you will notice AFR, say at 9:1. This then gradually decays to what is Commanded in IAC:AFR, versus Coolant Temp. You can change this Timeout AFR, by how much it decreases AFR, and how quick it decays it.
If you notice it is gutsing up at say 9:1, but starts to clear at 11:1 as it decays, then you need it to be 11:1 where it was 9:1, that is assuming it starts in the first place as you state after you increased the INJ:RAT.
This then means you need to decrease the amount of Cranking Fuel, but you would have read all this.....get my drift...??
You can best see cranking fuel in Guage /View BPW, and say it is 15ms, and wont start unless you add throttle, or even full throttle (clear flood) to get it to start. So now you need to remove Cranking Fuel, (FUL:CRK), and then you will notice the BPW may be at 8ms. But dont touch any of this until everything else spot on at N.O.T.
Getting back to AFR's, which ones did you change to 14.7?????
You shouldnt have to change any AFR's, mainly because of the 2 modes of Fuel, Open Loop and Closed.
Closed Loop means basically Locked into reading/monitoring/and correcting to the o2 sensor(s).
If you are in Open Loop, there is no correcting, and reads from Open Loop table, assuming that INJ:RAT / INJ:MUL are correct.
You will notice that the STFT only works when AFR is at 14.7 (actually 14.65) and the Fuel Control flag is set
You will also notice that cars with big exhausts, bigger cams etc effect the o2 sensor with dilution, and not give correct signal. In these cases you need to give it what it likes.
Thats enough to chew on for now........
Regards to all
Al
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Re: idle leans off after running closed loop!

Postby Davo » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:52 pm

Have you set your idle AFR table Vs coolant temp to 14.7:1? name is FUL:FAR:IACA(CLT). You've turned on the oxygen sensor switching at idle for an AUTO car but you'll need to command it via this table as to when it should use stoich.
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Re: idle leans off after running closed loop!

Postby VXL67Getrag » Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:51 am

Hey Davo,
Thanks mate, yeh I did try adjusting the afr table' vs coolant temp at that specified point as the factory had it set to 13.7 above around 88 degress temp I think from memory, but people have said not to fudge the afr table's!
I'm not sure what you meant by turned the oxy sensor switching at idle for an auto, when did I do this & how? :?
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Re: idle leans off after running closed loop!

Postby Davo » Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:37 pm

Ok, firing up laptop. Is your car auto or manual ? Manual cars are always considered to be in gear(drive) in Engine gen options A "manual trans" switch is there. In Engine general options B is "open loop idle" or "stoich idle fuel" something like that. Either unclick open loop idle or depress stoich idle fuel so therefore it will do closed loop fuel at idle BUT only when you set the IACFAR table to 14.7 at the desired ECT. If set stoich in IACAFR table but stoich idle fuel is NOT depressed then it is a calculation off the base VE table is VERUZ or with MAF then INJMUL.
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Re: idle leans off after running closed loop!

Postby VXL67Getrag » Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:57 am

LEGEND!
Thank you so much!
I actually had already figured these things out, but I'm so glad you could be of assistance!

Yes it is a manual & have that flag set & then switched off all auto controllers!

& I have stoich idle set, but after 80 degrees(temp) the factory cal's are set to 13.7 afr at closed throttle afr table!

There is also another table time before goes to open loop idle & the factory cal set on that is 255 seconds in drive or 10 seconds in neutral! is this what everyone leaves it as?

Is there any setting that I should choose to make IAC less aggressive as it is a manual & is not trying to pull the torque converter around too? as when I have the throttle set so I let it control the idle it is badly hunting, but if I screw stop screw so it is at the commanded idle speed it is fine!

CHEERS HEAPS DAVO!!!
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Re: idle leans off after running closed loop!

Postby stormtrooper » Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:36 pm

VXL67Getrag wrote:Is there any setting that I should choose to make IAC less aggressive as it is a manual & is not trying to pull the torque converter around too? as when I have the throttle set so I let it control the idle it is badly hunting, but if I screw stop screw so it is at the commanded idle speed it is fine!
Timing.

One of the worst things you can do is to "adjust" the idle stop screw to achieve the desired idle speed. The Idle solenoid is for that. You should probably reset the Idle stop screw back to factory spec and leave it at that.

Before I start I need you to understand this is what I do with SP3 so it may not work with Workshop. Considering you have idle set to stoichometric up till 80 degrees I would set the idle to stoichometric above 80 degrees as well.

After you have the fuel settings at stoichometric from idle right through to say about 85% throttle opening you would use the timing settings to achieve the desired idle quality.
If you need help with anything Kalmaker related (that includes things like ECU, program, injector, wiring etc) ask on the forum so everyone can help or learn.
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Re: idle leans off after running closed loop!

Postby Davo » Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:58 pm

VXL67Getrag wrote:LEGEND!
Thank you so much!
I actually had already figured these things out, but I'm so glad you could be of assistance!

Yes it is a manual & have that flag set & then switched off all auto controllers!

& I have stoich idle set, but after 80 degrees(temp) the factory cal's are set to 13.7 afr at closed throttle afr table!

There is also another table time before goes to open loop idle & the factory cal set on that is 255 seconds in drive or 10 seconds in neutral! is this what everyone leaves it as?

Is there any setting that I should choose to make IAC less aggressive as it is a manual & is not trying to pull the torque converter around too? as when I have the throttle set so I let it control the idle it is badly hunting, but if I screw stop screw so it is at the commanded idle speed it is fine!

CHEERS HEAPS DAVO!!!



Sorry no "subscribe to thread" parameter here. There are TONS of settings for the IAC control. Too many to explain to you here. It Is prolly 1 of Kalmakers Strong points and a weak point. EVERY SINGLE PART OF THE IDLE CAN BE TAILORED TO YOUR MODS. I use List view, ENGINE IDLE I think it is. Best to log it. This will tell you which part of the Code is being used when your car hunts for idle, stalls or plain old don't fu@(ing start properly. Using the throttle stop screw is the iceing on the cake. Get idle 99.9% right and use the screw to finish it off. What mod's have you got ? Basically i've never got a car to idle like factory but they haven't been putting out factory power numbers either. FIT's air to air intercooler is a piece of Shiet in my opinion. Rather use water injection than that big waste of time. Are you using MAF ?
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