Tips for a newbie

Moderator: Hooter

Re: Tips for a newbie

Postby Krusty » Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:04 pm

So re the 4 or 5 gas analyzers, do they log accurately but just not in real time or is it a case of they miss real time logging through the rangebut get super accurate samples if you load the engine up at a fixed rev point like you can on a dyno?

As for my last question, how many users of Workshop are there?
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Re: Tips for a newbie

Postby DerekBell » Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:16 pm

Again I think it depends on what you buy and how you use it, but think load points would be far more acurant than through the range as they need to suck up the fumes, and then analise them. Having said that, I know a few people here in Adelaide that use nothing but analizers with no problems, but cant remember what brand/s they were using.

I don't know how many users, but workshop has so many different versions that only correspond to certain models, and are mainly used by workshops who do tuning all the time, getting one to one help from Hooter when needed..

However, keep the questions coming, and please post any tricks you may come across during your experiance, they will help others in the future..

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Re: Tips for a newbie

Postby VXL67Getrag » Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:36 am

I'm very sorry for the arguing as it is childish & stupid!

But I was not trying to argue, I merely asked how long it can react at idle, as from my experience with my snap-on 5 gas analyzer it has a pump on it which draws the vapors from exhaust but I know at idle it takes about 20seconds to react as I have timed it(& this cost me $3,500, but you have to have it to be a certified LPG installer).

As I just bought the Innovate LM2 & I know even at the pipe I made up in the rear(which they don't recommend doing) it reacts in milliseconds to fuel trims at idle.
After I bought the LM2, I read up a bit & people said the LM1 are a lot more reliable & as there will be very few instances of having a vehicle with separate pipes I guess it's not really needed.

But I would seriously like to hear other peoples opinions & tools that they have that work as I was told the Ortronics wide band meter was the best on the market & was around $2000, but I couldn't find it anywhere & searched what people said & a lot of people mentioned how good the innovate motorsports stuff was especially the NZ tuners, but really worldwide.

Anyway I would like to hear other people's opinions, & Krusty is the software available for release for the vy?
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Re: Tips for a newbie

Postby DerekBell » Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:18 pm

The question was fine, just how you asked it. As I mentioned, try and keep any questions broad range and not to single out members as it can be taken the wrong way at times.

Ill have to chase up what wideband sensors my workshop guys are using and get back to everyone on that one, but have personally found in the past under idle you don't get a good signal, unless you put the sensor in the factory position as you get too much air being sucked up the pipe at the back and it gives a false reading, using a pipe as you mentioned helps, but I still had an inacurate reading untill I put another port before the cat (This will also depend on the full setup as well, cam, exhaust type etc etc), but do agree the sensors would be far more reliable under the low throttle positions, but again as discussed before, I personally think you would be better off using the stock sensor for these conditions anyway, as they are far more acurate under the stoich area, and are what the ECU will use, but definately turn to the wideband etc for areas outside this as the stock is next to useless (Unless your having issues and want to know exactly where the AFR is)..

Hopefully you are all getting somewhere, even though it may be slow going

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Re: Tips for a newbie

Postby Krusty » Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:57 pm

Hotter didn't mention W91/95/96 still being under development and seemed ready to let it go. A few others out of the Kalmaker team have told me it isn't ready for sale yet.

I guess I'll find out in about 2 weeks
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Re: Tips for a newbie

Postby Krusty » Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:44 pm

O.k. I finally scraped the dosh up to buy W91 and am focusing on finding a solution to what wideband to use. I came across this one and among it's features, one is programmable narrowband simulation which leads me to beleive it may be able to interface with Kalmaker under WOT tuning in place of the stock narrowband sensors. http://www.14point7.com/Widebands/SLC_DIY/SLC_DIY.htm

If you guys can check it out and point out any short comings or +++s, that would be great
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Re: Tips for a newbie

Postby stormtrooper » Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:46 pm

Hi Krusty, I just had a quick look at the site and a couple of things concern me. They send by normal post so there is no tracking number if things get lost in the mail. It's from the US so getting lost in transit is very possible. There is no warranty. The price seems to good to be true.

I use Tech Edge on in my troopy. The price is a little steep but the quality is good and its Australian (well its sold from Australia :wink: ). I use their 3b1 with an LSU sensor and a LA1 display. It can be setup for multiple fuels and from what I have been told, although I cannot confirm this, it can be setup to interface with Kalmaker.

N.b. I would only use a wideband as a guide when tuning, they just don't have the accuracy required for serious work.
If you need help with anything Kalmaker related (that includes things like ECU, program, injector, wiring etc) ask on the forum so everyone can help or learn.
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Re: Tips for a newbie

Postby Krusty » Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:19 pm

Good reply Troopy. The tech edge looks good but is a tad higher priced than my budget allows. I'm just a bloke and am in no way doing this as a business.........now or in the future touch wood.

I don't want to work on others cars because I don't need the headaches when things go sour. Already had that when a mate n I did a cam job for a customer and he had a spun cam bearing after we had already stripped his heads n fitted new valve stem seals n a spring n retainer combo! Was very hard to explain to him that we now had o pull his engine and the replacement including labour was going to be another $800 or so lol.

I understand that wideband is only used for tuning purposes due to the fact that the tune goes to closed loop under WOT which runs off pre determined maps but what do you mean when you refer to only using wideband for serious tuning? I thought all tuning was serious lol
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Re: Tips for a newbie

Postby stormtrooper » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:11 pm

I didn't buy my TechEdge for using on other peoples cars, it is permanently mounted on my old girl and will stay there until I change to another engine (UZ-FE of some sort).

When I said serious tuning I meant for maximum output. If you want that you really need to tune it in a safe environment (registered race track or dynomometer) and with a Gas Analyser. This is of course just my opinion but one based on seeing the after effects of people running engines to lean for to long. As I said Wide Bands just aren't accurate enough.
If you need help with anything Kalmaker related (that includes things like ECU, program, injector, wiring etc) ask on the forum so everyone can help or learn.
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Re: Tips for a newbie

Postby Hooter » Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:58 am

I use an Autronics wide band, and yes cost about $2000.
I am quite aware that most of us humans when we buy certain things, we are inclined to say "mine is better than yours" to justify buying the thing, and to be honest, my Autronics seems no better than others. Mates have got tech edge and they are fine, and others have Innovate which also seem fine. I used to have a Microtech which I didnt like, but another mate has one and his is fine.
Where you place things in the exhaust has a lot to do with how they perform.
A classic example of this is with VE Commodores, when you upgrade the exhaust, you get trouble codes, because the increased diameter of the rear pipes after the cats, and this reduces the airflow over the rear o2 sensors and stuffs up the readings.
The same happens with us with different camshafts and exhausts, and "often" the narrow band up the front can be quite misleading, sometimes to the point (Im talking Ecotech and Eco VS & VT V8) where (with LTFT disabled) the STFT is so far out, usually reading rich, that it gets right down to max and then resets, and you can feel this surge as you drive, and things defineately arent rich, because as you lean it out you feel it "go off" and your wide band confirms this.
When I get this, I reluctantly max out the FUL CLP CLT, turning off the narrow band(s) and relying totally on the wide band.
This is usually on more radical engines, but not always.
Another issue is the Left o2 reading way different to the Right 02.........what to do........
Usually one is right, and can be confirmed using wide band, but this where experience comes in.

At the other end of the scale, often widebands can be misleading at low engine speeds, reading very lean when not the case.
In my experience, a wide band will never give a false rich reading - only false lean, and only at low speed.
Wide bands are usually pretty much spot on a full throttle, especially on dyno on longer runs where no TAE (accel enrich) is present.

Gas analizers are great and usually deadly accurate and I was quite surprised when I first started using them, how much difference just a couple of "touches" to the VE (and Spark) made at idle and 1500rpm, which made no difference to the way the engine ran, and yet cleaned things up enough to pass any test.

It just shows you, "Too many tools is never enough"....sounds like HG and Roy......
Most tuners dont need gas analizers, unless you have tests to comply with.
Most tuners dont need a wide band, BUT, I recommend getting one if you can.
If you havent got a wide band and you dont trust what you are seeing, get on a dyno and confirm results with their wideband.
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